1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Self built and self assembly ;)

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StrummersOfThunder
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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by StrummersOfThunder »

Bg wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:18 am
StrummersOfThunder wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:58 am Glad there are people like grant and jay out there with their calipers honing their skills . Good work boys.

Come to think of it I don't think I've ever had a visit to jays place without the digital calipers coming out at some point. Measures cheese slices in microns
Measuring the length of his short shorts....
I think that would test the limits of most handyman digital calipers.

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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by GrantB »

OK...old guru on the intawebs says "second half of scale must be longer than the first because of physics and magic". He's provided some approximates at 2mm extra on treble side and 5mm on bass. wow.

So, here's my conclusion about Gibson. They do indeed run a 628.6mm scale, however they know about said magic, and make the 12th fret, and all others relatively speaking, short to compensate. So while mathematically 314.3mm should be a 12th fret marker for a 628.6mm scale, it's more like 311mm.

Again, why is this not discussed more?
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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by Lyle »

GrantB wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:23 am OK...old guru on the intawebs says "second half of scale must be longer than the first because of physics and magic". He's provided some approximates at 2mm extra on treble side and 5mm on bass. wow.

So, here's my conclusion about Gibson. They do indeed run a 628.6mm scale, however they know about said magic, and make the 12th fret, and all others relatively speaking, short to compensate. So while mathematically 314.3mm should be a 12th fret marker for a 628.6mm scale, it's more like 311mm.

Again, why is this not discussed more?
Gibson use the 'rule of 18' to set their fret positions, this means the 12th fret is in the slightly wrong place. Most manufacturers use 17.817 instead of 18 which places the 12th fret halfway between the scale length.

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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by Molly »

GrantB wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:23 am OK...old guru on the intawebs says "second half of scale must be longer than the first because of physics and magic". He's provided some approximates at 2mm extra on treble side and 5mm on bass. wow.

So, here's my conclusion about Gibson. They do indeed run a 628.6mm scale, however they know about said magic, and make the 12th fret, and all others relatively speaking, short to compensate. So while mathematically 314.3mm should be a 12th fret marker for a 628.6mm scale, it's more like 311mm.

Again, why is this not discussed more?
Is the PRS 594 so named because it's a more precise take on Gibson's scale length?

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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by jeremyb »

Fascinating stuff! I assume the shorter measurement is because when you actually fret the string at the 12, depending on your action, the length between the bridge and the fret will be slightly longer than the static string measured above the fret.
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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by Bg »

GrantB wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:16 am
Bg wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:58 pm meh, just buy one.. sheesh
If I pay myself minimum wage for working on this guitar I will have saved $14.23. And let's not discuss opportunity cost.
That's quite good, I get less than that for every cab I build.
So, is that low alcohol or no alcohol at all? mmmm, no alcohol, do you want to try it? Noooooooooo.

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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by GrantB »

Dowelled with old mahogany and hide glue. I'll let this dry for a couple of days, trim, lightly sand and touch up. Redrill and reset the studs before Easter is done hopefully.

I made a cool little tool to lift the studs out. Will take a shot.
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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by Lostininverness »

Jay wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:56 pm My Duovette neck was build using the Stewmac calculator and no issues at all. Used a 625 scale length and 12th fret exactly half that, ie, 312.5mm.

They do put a note up that for a TOM bridge you need to add 1.5mm on high and 1.5-3mm on low side. And to position the bridge, you measure to the center of the post, not the saddles.

Perhaps that would account for the missing mils?

Edit - actually 628.5mm is 24.74409" or, 24 3/4". Is that even an LP scale length? There seems to be some doubt on them? https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/scale-length.448295/
Without reading through the linked post, what I've picked up reading stuff is that there are 2 scale lengths used that close to each other - I've got them both on the same fret template thing that stewmac sell.

So it may have been that the posts were drilled in the wrong location to suit that scale length of the fretboard if the guy that built it didn't know what he was doing (which it sounds like). Possibly there was a different bridge used as well i.e. older style wraparound which has the molded compensatory points that needs to be drilled with a pronounced stagger v.s. a modern one with adjustable saddles.

I also found the stewmac locator thing difficult to use when I did my jnr builds. I ended up with the bridges too close so I can't get proper intonation on the lower strings - pretty bloody close, but no cigar . They were builds 3&4 I think, so I was still figuring stuff out. Going to redo one of them so will plug and redrill posts - might finish it as a gold top to hide the plugs!

Grant - hope the fix works out out once painted!

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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by Lyle »

Lostininverness wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:28 am
Jay wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:56 pm My Duovette neck was build using the Stewmac calculator and no issues at all. Used a 625 scale length and 12th fret exactly half that, ie, 312.5mm.

They do put a note up that for a TOM bridge you need to add 1.5mm on high and 1.5-3mm on low side. And to position the bridge, you measure to the center of the post, not the saddles.

Perhaps that would account for the missing mils?

Edit - actually 628.5mm is 24.74409" or, 24 3/4". Is that even an LP scale length? There seems to be some doubt on them? https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/scale-length.448295/
Without reading through the linked post, what I've picked up reading stuff is that there are 2 scale lengths used that close to each other - I've got them both on the same fret template thing that stewmac sell.
That's the issue. You calculate the fret locations using 24 3/4" scale length, if you use 17.817 in the formula then the bridge will end up at 24 3/4", but Gibson use 18 so the bridge ends up at 24.57". So you end up with a 'base' scale length for calculating fret position and 'relative' scale length which is where the bridge ends up.

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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by GrantB »

Thanks guys - this is clearly not cut n dry....and it's good we're posting about here so others can dig it up, and avoid what's just happened to me.

Grant, the guy has totally drilled the holes in the wrong place. You can tell because the P90 centre route is correct, but the post holes are too close to it. So, fixing two things at once here. I used hide glue as it is a good filler and doesn't move after drying.
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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by jeremyb »

It does look close to the pickup in this diagram:
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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by GrantB »

Here's a real 59...look how cranked back that bridge is. That's the right position. On mine, with the P90 cover on, there would have been maybe 8mm to the post hole. Might need to be more like 12-14mm.

Image

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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by Jay »

StrummersOfThunder wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:58 am Glad there are people like grant and jay out there with their calipers honing their skills . Good work boys.

Come to think of it I don't think I've ever had a visit to jays place without the digital calipers coming out at some point. Measures cheese slices in microns
Digital caliper on right, analogue cheese caliper on left
20210403_125538.jpg
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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by GrantB »

In other news, the neck angle is right on, but another mm and it would have been a different story. I think this is why Gibson build with bigger tolerances. I would have been slightly happier with a little more angle because I could have used a greater variety of pickups. P90's only now...

One does these things to learn!!
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Re: 1959 Les Paul Junior Build

Post by GrantB »

Jay wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:09 pm
StrummersOfThunder wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:58 am Glad there are people like grant and jay out there with their calipers honing their skills . Good work boys.

Come to think of it I don't think I've ever had a visit to jays place without the digital calipers coming out at some point. Measures cheese slices in microns
Digital caliper on right, analogue cheese caliper on left

20210403_125538.jpg
French metric cheese grater? Or imperial USA one?
"Man is the most insane species. He worships an invisible god and destroys a visible nature. Unaware that this nature he's destroying is this god he's worshipping." - Hubert Reeves

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