NGD - A lonnnnnnnnng time comin'...

[Mr Bungle]

Ah yes with those shots it does have a bit more in common with mine . Pick guard shrinking , fairly squared bevel on the body.
Mine is light too. Compared to my avri it’s a feather
They’re cool things aren’t they. So much mojo
The trem springs are great in these old fenders . I realised that early on after I got my old jag.
I reckon the biggest ‘feel’ thing about them is the neck . Thst silky smooth worn in neck where the finish is all but gone and you can feel the wood grain.
We should have a sword fight some time

I’ve compared my old v new JM trem arms. Quite a difference in how far they sit, or don’t, off the body. This particular vintage is much closer than the AOJM. I’ll bend it out to somewhere in between. This will give better leverage and smoother action that the AO enjoys.

Yeh they need tweaking

Your ‘63 arm is really straight, which not many were from what I’ve seen. Something you’ve manipulated to your liking? I have seen some vintage for sale with very straight arms.

[GrantB]

I would doubt any NZ Customs officer would confiscate a vintage guitar and destroy it. Can you imagine the legal battle that would ensue?

There were, at the height of this madness (which has passed), some high profile suits in Europe from orchestras where instruments, some very old, were held pending the owners having to provide proof. These suits formed the basis of a review in the bonkers bureaucratic EU to ensure items made before the CITES convention came into play.

Actually, CITES is old...I wonder why all of a sudden EU went nuts on it later on...

[robthemac]

I would doubt any NZ Customs officer would confiscate a vintage guitar and destroy it. Can you imagine the legal battle that would ensue?

There were, at the height of this madness (which has passed), some high profile suits in Europe from orchestras where instruments, some very old, were held pending the owners having to provide proof. These suits formed the basis of a review in the bonkers bureaucratic EU to ensure items made before the CITES convention came into play.

Actually, CITES is old...I wonder why all of a sudden EU went nuts on it later on...

The whole ES-150 situation has made this a moot point for me. Still tempted to see if Customs would provide a letter confirming that CITES doesn't apply to pre-1973 instruments regardless of small amounts of regulated materials.

[Mr Bungle]

I would doubt any NZ Customs officer would confiscate a vintage guitar and destroy it. Can you imagine the legal battle that would ensue?

There were, at the height of this madness (which has passed), some high profile suits in Europe from orchestras where instruments, some very old, were held pending the owners having to provide proof. These suits formed the basis of a review in the bonkers bureaucratic EU to ensure items made before the CITES convention came into play.

Actually, CITES is old...I wonder why all of a sudden EU went nuts on it later on...

Mick, Rockshop owner, purchased a house in Queenstown we supplied product on. So I’ve got to know him since. He told me they had a shipment of Taylor’s that featured Braz Rosewood stopped by NZ Customs due to paperwork being out of date after Covid shipping delays. They tried lawyers etc but the guitars were all destroyed.

And as I mentioned earlier on this thread, Inv guy I know got stopped by a guitar playing customs officer. No issue as it was Indian, but was told were it Braz it would have been confiscated and destroyed.

But as you and others have said, it’s not easy to determine wood type. You’re unlikely to be stopped. Vast majority move these items with no issues.

[Mr Bungle]

I would doubt any NZ Customs officer would confiscate a vintage guitar and destroy it. Can you imagine the legal battle that would ensue?

There were, at the height of this madness (which has passed), some high profile suits in Europe from orchestras where instruments, some very old, were held pending the owners having to provide proof. These suits formed the basis of a review in the bonkers bureaucratic EU to ensure items made before the CITES convention came into play.

Actually, CITES is old...I wonder why all of a sudden EU went nuts on it later on...

The whole ES-150 situation has made this a moot point for me. Still tempted to see if Customs would provide a letter confirming that CITES doesn't apply to pre-1973 instruments regardless of small amounts of regulated materials.

I contacted DOC prior to the guitar arriving and this is what I got back from their dedicated cites@doc.govt.nz email.

Kia ora,

Thank you for your email regarding the import to New Zealand of a guitar containing Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia nigra). Your client will need to apply to the US CITES Management Authority for a pre-Convention certificate to allow legal entry to New Zealand (see below on how to do this).

Some background on CITES
The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) ensures that long-term survival of species is not threatened by international trade. All imports and exports of protected plants and animals are authorised via a permitting system. Permits can be issued only if certain conditions are met which ensures the trade is legal, sustainable, and traceable.

CITES applies to many different types of goods. This includes fully processed items, those legally purchased over the counter, traditional medicines, or items that were sustainably harvested. Even very old items such as antiques can include protected plant and animal parts.

How does CITES apply to the item I wish to import?
All rosewood (Dalbergia) species are listed under CITES (there are 293 species in total). Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia nigra) is listed under Appendix I and has greater restrictions than other rosewood species. All parts and derivatives of Brazilian rosewood require CITES permits for legal entry into NZ. The confusion around musical instruments likely stems from other Dalbergia species, which are exempt from permitting requirements if they are finished musical instruments. Please note, this does NOT include musical instruments made from Dalbergia nigra.

Pre-Convention Brazilian rosewood
You indicated that the guitar was made around 1960. There are different requirements if the rosewood on the guitar pre-dates the species’ listing on CITES on 11th June 1992. Pre-Convention items have fewer permitting requirements to facilitate the movement between countries. If the guitar is deemed to be pre-Convention, a Pre-Convention Certificate issued by the exporting country’s CITES Management Authority (in this case, the United States) would be required for legal entry into NZ.

Please contact the US CMA for advice on what evidence they require for a pre-Convention Certificate and for their processing timeframes. Their contact details can be found here https://cites.org/eng/parties/country-p ... uthorities. Your client should also enquire what permits are likely to be required for the return to the US. They may have to contact us for another pre-Convention certificate for the return journey (please allow 20 working days for the processing of any permit applications, CITES permits and certificates are standardly valid for 6 months).

What happens once I’ve obtained my permit?
Once you have obtained a CITES permit or certificate from the exporting country, it is important to ensure that:
endorsement is completed by the exporting country’s customs agency (if required)
any special conditions are complied with
import of item occurs before the expiry date (they are usually valid for a period of 6 months)
the original hard copy permit is presented to New Zealand border officials on arrival

What if I import my item without a permit?
New Zealand has very strict CITES requirements compared to other countries. Importing CITES species into New Zealand without the required documents is an offence under the Trade In Endangered Species Act 1989. Items imported not in accordance with the Act are seized and forfeit to the Crown and importers may be issued with infringement notices.

For more information about the Convention please see the Department of Conservation website - www.doc.govt.nz/cites

But that’s just the official line. Actual consistent enforcement and the appetite for it with regard to old instruments is a different thing.

[robthemac]

I would doubt any NZ Customs officer would confiscate a vintage guitar and destroy it. Can you imagine the legal battle that would ensue?

There were, at the height of this madness (which has passed), some high profile suits in Europe from orchestras where instruments, some very old, were held pending the owners having to provide proof. These suits formed the basis of a review in the bonkers bureaucratic EU to ensure items made before the CITES convention came into play.

Actually, CITES is old...I wonder why all of a sudden EU went nuts on it later on...

The whole ES-150 situation has made this a moot point for me. Still tempted to see if Customs would provide a letter confirming that CITES doesn't apply to pre-1973 instruments regardless of small amounts of regulated materials.

I contacted DOC prior to the guitar arriving and this is what I got back from their dedicated cites@doc.govt.nz email.

Kia ora,

Thank you for your email regarding the import to New Zealand of a guitar containing Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia nigra). Your client will need to apply to the US CITES Management Authority for a pre-Convention certificate to allow legal entry to New Zealand (see below on how to do this).

Some background on CITES
The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) ensures that long-term survival of species is not threatened by international trade. All imports and exports of protected plants and animals are authorised via a permitting system. Permits can be issued only if certain conditions are met which ensures the trade is legal, sustainable, and traceable.

CITES applies to many different types of goods. This includes fully processed items, those legally purchased over the counter, traditional medicines, or items that were sustainably harvested. Even very old items such as antiques can include protected plant and animal parts.

How does CITES apply to the item I wish to import?
All rosewood (Dalbergia) species are listed under CITES (there are 293 species in total). Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia nigra) is listed under Appendix I and has greater restrictions than other rosewood species. All parts and derivatives of Brazilian rosewood require CITES permits for legal entry into NZ. The confusion around musical instruments likely stems from other Dalbergia species, which are exempt from permitting requirements if they are finished musical instruments. Please note, this does NOT include musical instruments made from Dalbergia nigra.

Pre-Convention Brazilian rosewood
You indicated that the guitar was made around 1960. There are different requirements if the rosewood on the guitar pre-dates the species’ listing on CITES on 11th June 1992. Pre-Convention items have fewer permitting requirements to facilitate the movement between countries. If the guitar is deemed to be pre-Convention, a Pre-Convention Certificate issued by the exporting country’s CITES Management Authority (in this case, the United States) would be required for legal entry into NZ.

Please contact the US CMA for advice on what evidence they require for a pre-Convention Certificate and for their processing timeframes. Their contact details can be found here https://cites.org/eng/parties/country-p ... uthorities. Your client should also enquire what permits are likely to be required for the return to the US. They may have to contact us for another pre-Convention certificate for the return journey (please allow 20 working days for the processing of any permit applications, CITES permits and certificates are standardly valid for 6 months).

What happens once I’ve obtained my permit?
Once you have obtained a CITES permit or certificate from the exporting country, it is important to ensure that:
endorsement is completed by the exporting country’s customs agency (if required)
any special conditions are complied with
import of item occurs before the expiry date (they are usually valid for a period of 6 months)
the original hard copy permit is presented to New Zealand border officials on arrival

What if I import my item without a permit?
New Zealand has very strict CITES requirements compared to other countries. Importing CITES species into New Zealand without the required documents is an offence under the Trade In Endangered Species Act 1989. Items imported not in accordance with the Act are seized and forfeit to the Crown and importers may be issued with infringement notices.

For more information about the Convention please see the Department of Conservation website - www.doc.govt.nz/cites

But that’s just the official line. Actual consistent enforcement and the appetite for it with regard to old instruments is a different thing.

Good to know. Pre-Convention certificate from country of origin, then should be golden.

[Mr Bungle]

Good to know. Pre-Convention certificate from country of origin, then should be golden.

Yet not that easy to complete. The guitar needs to have a qualified person sight it and sign it off. I also personally spoke with Garrick, owner of Studio 1 in Auckland when I visited the store. While he didn’t think I’d have an issue walking one over the border he did send this in an email…

We need to get them sighted and signed off in the USA with an export certificate. Sounds easy but there are only a handful of locations in the USA that can do it.

Shit I did some research on how to get this thing here safe and sound. Ffs.

[robthemac]

Good to know. Pre-Convention certificate from country of origin, then should be golden.

Yet not that easy to complete. The guitar needs to have a qualified person sight it and sign it off. I also personally spoke with Garrick, owner of Studio 1 in Auckland when I visited the store. While he didn’t think I’d have an issue walking one over the border he did send this in an email…

We need to get them sighted and signed off in the USA with an export certificate. Sounds easy but there are only a handful of locations in the USA that can do it.

Shit I did some research on how to get this thing here safe and sound. Ffs.

Will seek your wisdom if I ever go international.

[GrantB]

I would doubt any NZ Customs officer would confiscate a vintage guitar and destroy it. Can you imagine the legal battle that would ensue?

There were, at the height of this madness (which has passed), some high profile suits in Europe from orchestras where instruments, some very old, were held pending the owners having to provide proof. These suits formed the basis of a review in the bonkers bureaucratic EU to ensure items made before the CITES convention came into play.

Actually, CITES is old...I wonder why all of a sudden EU went nuts on it later on...

Mick, Rockshop owner, purchased a house in Queenstown we supplied product on. So I’ve got to know him since. He told me they had a shipment of Taylor’s that featured Braz Rosewood stopped by NZ Customs due to paperwork being out of date after Covid shipping delays. They tried lawyers etc but the guitars were all destroyed.

And as I mentioned earlier on this thread, Inv guy I know got stopped by a guitar playing customs officer. No issue as it was Indian, but was told were it Braz it would have been confiscated and destroyed.

But as you and others have said, it’s not easy to determine wood type. You’re unlikely to be stopped. Vast majority move these items with no issues.

Not at all suggesting Mick is fabricating etc, but if that is exactly what happened, then that's a disgusting outcome. NZ Customs should be embarrassed by that bureaucratic BS. That's truly a " ring the NZ Herald, your local MP, judge, JotP etc " situation. I can't find any related story online.

I can't understand why there ins't a massive outcry here? Let's say you own a NZ new 64 Strat and you gig with it in Aus for a month. You bring it back after your tour...are we suggesting that Customs will confiscate said Strat and destroy it, if the unlucky owner happens to encounter a guitar playing customs officer?

[robthemac]

Yeah I'd be calling my solicitor. Doesn't seem like a proportionate response to a rectifiable error.

[GrantB]

Yeah I'd be calling my solicitor. Doesn't seem like a proportionate response to a rectifiable error.

Agreed.

And then there is this...

https://www.nzguitars.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36908

Braz still requiring import/export tickets tho.

[GrantB]

Yeah I'd be calling my solicitor. Doesn't seem like a proportionate response to a rectifiable error.

"Importing" or "exporting" are the terms used in CITES. If you already own it, you are doing neither.

I wonder what the stance is on Ebony? I've had a quite a few in over the last few years....mainly LP Customs.

[Mr Bungle]

I would doubt any NZ Customs officer would confiscate a vintage guitar and destroy it. Can you imagine the legal battle that would ensue?

There were, at the height of this madness (which has passed), some high profile suits in Europe from orchestras where instruments, some very old, were held pending the owners having to provide proof. These suits formed the basis of a review in the bonkers bureaucratic EU to ensure items made before the CITES convention came into play.

Actually, CITES is old...I wonder why all of a sudden EU went nuts on it later on...

Mick, Rockshop owner, purchased a house in Queenstown we supplied product on. So I’ve got to know him since. He told me they had a shipment of Taylor’s that featured Braz Rosewood stopped by NZ Customs due to paperwork being out of date after Covid shipping delays. They tried lawyers etc but the guitars were all destroyed.

And as I mentioned earlier on this thread, Inv guy I know got stopped by a guitar playing customs officer. No issue as it was Indian, but was told were it Braz it would have been confiscated and destroyed.

But as you and others have said, it’s not easy to determine wood type. You’re unlikely to be stopped. Vast majority move these items with no issues.

Not at all suggesting Mick is fabricating etc, but if that is exactly what happened, then that's a disgusting outcome. NZ Customs should be embarrassed by that bureaucratic BS. That's truly a " ring the NZ Herald, your local MP, judge, JotP etc " situation. I can't find any related story online.

He was livid as you’d imagine. Very animated telling me over the phone. Called it criminal. They tried every legal avenue but eventually they were destroyed.

[kdawg2a]

I have a 20ft shipping container that's full of household items including 38 guitars heading its way back to New Zealand. Of those 38 guitars I'd say at least 20 of them have Brazilian rosewood boards. I've never had trouble shifting stuff before so I'm hoping that luck will continue.

[GrantB]

And that’s where we got to with Mr Bungles guitar. I’ve walked a few guitars over the border…never been an issue.