Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

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Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by werdna »

I like your tone: research suggests why older violins sound so good.

“With the advances in technology and the availability of premium quality wood, today’s best makers are producing instruments on a par with those of Stradivari and Guarneri,”
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/ ... nd-so-good

Cue discussion about old Fenders and Gibsons, old tone woods, hide glue made from the foreskin of leprecauns etc.
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Re: Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by Wairarapajack »

The violins they measured that did best were old and high quality - 1700s and 1800s. There really aren't many acoustic guitars that would compare to that, not ones in regular use anyway. Guitar mass popularity only took off in the 20th century.

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Re: Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by murky »

I believe in the “old wood” thing - but it has to have been good wood/built well to begin with.

The real kicker though….. is an old instrument, with all its wear, dings, and mojo, inspires! It has songs in it. It makes time disappear. That feeling simply can’t be replicated.

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Re: Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by Cdog »

Interesting discussion. I went with the CSO to Japan in 2011, I remember talking to a Cellist about his instrument and he was rather shy that it was 'only' 100 years old. Older was better in his mind.
murky wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:12 am I believe in the “old wood” thing - but it has to have been good wood/built well to begin with.

The real kicker though….. is an old instrument, with all its wear, dings, and mojo, inspires! It has songs in it. It makes time disappear. That feeling simply can’t be replicated.
Yeah I think you're right. Quality timber and construction is always going to age well. Even better if your instrument was owned and played my some musical legend, like many of the Stradi's have been

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Re: Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by sizzlingbadger »

In the last '80s when I was an apprentice I befriended a fellow apprentice whose father made violins and bows. The varnish concoction they used was a closely guarded secret of each maker. I recall watching him working on a bow one day, shaping it etc. It took several months to make, including time spent on servicing and repairing other instruments. He said the bow would sell for just over 30,000 pounds ! He had also started making classical guitars, and could play quite well. He lived in Ramsdell, UK but I can't remember his name.
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Re: Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by Molly »

John Williams said that guitars reach an optimum tone and then 'crest' so to speak. Meaning the cosmic accident of age and tone going hand-in-hand is not something that goes on forever.

I've often wondered about this relationship between rarity and tone, age and tone, price and tone, hand-made and tone, blah blah fucking blah. It's got to be largely horse shit. If there are ingredients that result in great tone then they are measurable and can be replicated. For most of us it's just a case of playing a few versions of the same guitar until we find a good one. Whatever we decide that to be.

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Re: Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by Slowy »

Although it’s variable, I’ve always understood 80 to be peak maturity for acoustics of high quality. After that, they start to lose sustain.

My Lowden produces these ‘third’ notes. They’re lovely to listen to.
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Re: Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by calling card »

Maybe it exists in the weird sub atomic quantum realm... ghost of the fifth dimension.

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Re: Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by olegmcnoleg »

Slowy wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:25 am Although it’s variable, I’ve always understood 80 to be peak maturity for acoustics of high quality. After that, they start to lose sustain.

My Lowden produces these ‘third’ notes. They’re lovely to listen to.
I've also heard the argument that acoustics peak and then decline. I've heard 50 years quoted for classical guitars. The older acoustics I've played vary right across the board from just awful (some) to not quite as good as a good new one (most) to 'off the chart' good. Until recently I owned a Washburn guitar from 1899 and that was hugely resonant; 120 years and going strong. (Sadly, its neck was shaped like a banana, so I did not play it much. :? )

We've had discussions before about the science involved in the aging of musical instruments (can't find the thread now). But there definitely is some on violins and acoustic guitars. I don't know what might cause the guitar to peak & then go off though... just the wood slowly turning back to dust? Entropy is a bitch.

My Lowden also has those 'third' notes. I think the sound box just seems to want to add in notes of its own as you play. Works best with the sharp keys and especially in D, which makes me think that the sound box is designed to accentuate one or more sympathetic notes

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Re: Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by jeremyb »

I think there is an interesting discussion in the psychology around how we play instruments of different condition and value, I dunno about you guys but I know with my roadworn strat I hit it hard and don't baby it at all... but put an expensive and flash finished guitar in my hands and I feel really cautious and feel uncomfortable playing it... does anyone else experience this??
Slowy wrote: That's the problem; everything rewarding is just such hard work. Regret takes much less effort.

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Re: Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by robthemac »

jeremyb wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:43 am I think there is an interesting discussion in the psychology around how we play instruments of different condition and value, I dunno about you guys but I know with my roadworn strat I hit it hard and don't baby it at all... but put an expensive and flash finished guitar in my hands and I feel really cautious and feel uncomfortable playing it... does anyone else experience this??
No, I bash the shit out of all my instruments.
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Re: Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by jeremyb »

robthemac wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:45 am
jeremyb wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:43 am I think there is an interesting discussion in the psychology around how we play instruments of different condition and value, I dunno about you guys but I know with my roadworn strat I hit it hard and don't baby it at all... but put an expensive and flash finished guitar in my hands and I feel really cautious and feel uncomfortable playing it... does anyone else experience this??
No, I bash the shit out of all my instruments.
I thought it was just your organ? what about other peoples instruments?
Slowy wrote: That's the problem; everything rewarding is just such hard work. Regret takes much less effort.

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Re: Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by Slowy »

jeremyb wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:43 am ... but put an expensive and flash finished guitar in my hands and I feel really cautious and feel uncomfortable playing it... does anyone else experience this??
Very much so. I sold my Doozy mainly because I felt like I was standing in a muddy field wearing an Armani suit. (So now I've got an Eastman coming. I never learn :roll: )

With the exception of my Lowden, I hate feeling precious about my gear. It's tools. Tools have to work for a living and unless they're in the cotton wool environment of IT or the Professions, work means wear.
Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who so survive.

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Re: Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by Slowy »

jeremyb wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:30 pm ??
Jb, are you getting PMs from me? They claim to be sent but don't appear in my sent folder. :problem:
Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who so survive.

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Re: Old violins sound better, apparently, and why

Post by jeremyb »

Slowy wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:10 pm
jeremyb wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:30 pm ??
Jb, are you getting PMs from me? They claim to be sent but don't appear in my sent folder. :problem:
Not since the original two you sent me :-( just sent you one :-)
Last edited by jeremyb on Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Slowy wrote: That's the problem; everything rewarding is just such hard work. Regret takes much less effort.

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