Counterpoint

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dayl
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Counterpoint

Post by dayl »

Hi all,

I am having trouble coming to terms with counterpoint. I thought I did this already in what would be seen as a basic level but am not sure. I just want to get to grips with it and was wondering if anyone can help give some straight forward working examples, or share their experiences.

Here is the gereral decription according to wiki:
In its most general aspect, counterpoint involves the writing of musical lines that sound very different and move independently from each other but sound harmonious when played simultaneously. In each era, contrapuntally organized music writing has been subject to rules, sometimes strict. By definition, chords occur when multiple notes sound simultaneously; however, harmonic, "vertical" features are considered secondary and almost incidental when counterpoint is the predominant textural element. Counterpoint focuses on melodic interaction—only secondarily on the harmonies produced by that interaction. In the words of John Rahn:

It is hard to write a beautiful song. It is harder to write several individually beautiful songs that, when sung simultaneously, sound as a more beautiful polyphonic whole. The internal structures that create each of the voices separately must contribute to the emergent structure of the polyphony, which in turn must reinforce and comment on the structures of the individual voices. The way that is accomplished in detail is...'counterpoint'.[1]

The separation of harmony and counterpoint is not absolute. It is impossible to write simultaneous lines without producing harmony, and impossible to write harmony without linear activity. The composer who chooses to ignore one aspect in favour of the other still must face the fact that the listener cannot simply turn off harmonic or linear hearing at will; thus the composer risks creating annoying distractions unintendedly. Bach's counterpoint—often considered the most profound synthesis of the two dimensions ever achieved—is extremely rich harmonically and always clearly directed tonally, while the individual lines remain fascinating.

Thanks guys.

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Re: Counterpoint

Post by Vince »

I absolutely LOVE counterpoint :D


In very simple terms it's like this: most music has some sort of chord backing D//// A//// G//// D//// etc. and a melody.

In counterpoint, you have two or more equally important melodies happening at once. Bach and the baroque composers used it a lot, as did trad jazz players, where the melody instruments played simultaneous melody lines.

Check out all the melodies in this, that's a good example of counterpoint.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWf29GF0fuE[/youtube]
EDIT: (I've changed the video from a standard organ recording to a recording based on Wendy Carlos' version on Switched On Bach, the lines are easier to hear)


Similar concept in trad jazz
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWKWy4Y7LaI[/youtube]
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Re: Counterpoint

Post by Aquila Rossa »

I always thought conterpoint was where some pervert got done for dogdy stuff in his commune north of the north shore somewhere.
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Re: Counterpoint

Post by mahtone »

Yeah it's a technique that plays contrasting melodies against each other for effect. I think it often uses wide pitch range and timbre palate to give clear separation to the lines so they don't blend into one another. Example might be using the violin section against the brass section, but when used as a section the line in each section must be heard as coming from the section, so arrangement within the section needs to support that. Lines can pass between instruments and between sections as well.

Orchestration and arrangement is a complex subject. I've done some reading on it, and know enough to know that it's not for the faint of heart in a large ensemble.

Counterpoint in itself is a very wide ranging subject...
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Re: Counterpoint

Post by RuBear »

If the mixer wasn't stuck in the band room i'd show you a small riff I made in high school as a project the music teacher set me, play one melody line for a while and then add in the next one whilst still playing the first, with different melody and rhythm.

Got real hard, first figured out each part on its own then had to learn how to play them together. Wasn't anything fantastic, but I learnt a few things on the way.
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Re: Counterpoint

Post by Hot_Grits »

1:11 to 1:17 on here is a pretty good example of counterpoint in action:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNDE7FdgeWM[/youtube]

it's a Steve Morse tune, not played by Steve, though. Kinda looks like Alex lifeson plus some pies...
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Re: Counterpoint

Post by Ears »

"The piano is a monster that screams when you touch its teeth". - Andres Segovia

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Re: Counterpoint

Post by thehenderson »

You hear it so much in rock and pop stuff, I reckon it can sound pretty played out when it's done wrong like all the bad Pet Sounds imitations. Here's a simple bit of counterpoint in a Strokes song, skip to the verse at 0:38 to hear the guitar play the counter-melody, vocals take the melody, and the bass doesn't play at all :

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBGz-14yv-8[/youtube]

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Re: Counterpoint

Post by Ears »

Learn species counterpoint first, not only does it provide the rules but, imo, it often sounds better than free counterpoint.
I suggest J Fux Gradus ad Parnassum,
it was good enough for Haydn and Mozart to learn from so good enough for us too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Fux

I've just been listening to Thomas Tallis, that cat wrote counterpoint for 40 independent voices.
Aside from Bach's great instrumental works, vocal music seems to own the greatest contrapuntal works, imo (Palistrina, Victoria, Lassus etc)
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Re: Counterpoint

Post by dayl »

Thanks heaps guys.

That gives me a lot to go on.

8)

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Re: Counterpoint

Post by sgt mukuzi »

what about 12 tone berg and his mates, would you say that is counterpoint ?
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Re: Counterpoint

Post by Ears »

I'd say a firm no, the compositional techniques really rest on totally different principles, having said that I'm sure one can find some parallels within each.
Counterpoint has it's roots in the medieval mindset where music was the part of the dancing of the cosmic spheres and where the composers strove for unity and dissonance was handled under strict conditions.
12 tone starts from a point deliberately created to achieve as much disorder as possible.
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Re: Counterpoint

Post by sgt mukuzi »

fair comment Ears, I love anton webern (sp?) his vocal stuff amazes me
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Re: Counterpoint

Post by Vince »

Ears wrote: Counterpoint has it's roots in the medieval mindset where music was the part of the dancing of the cosmic spheres and where the composers strove for unity and dissonance was handled under strict conditions.
Counterpoint is also a very useful concept when you have two flute players, an oboe player and a tambourine player and need to create as big a sound as possible :D
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