Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
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- Reg18
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Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
So I've got a Timeline delay (stereo) and a Mr Black Eterna reverb (not stereo) for an up coming event I'm hoping to go stereo. I only really use reverb for atmospheric bits with a washy delay with long feedback time. I have always had reverb last in my chain because I don't really want to saturate my delay in reverb but to go stereo I will either need to go reverb into delay and out left and right from my timeline to both amps or go delay into reverb and then via an AB box of some sort to both amps, however this bypasses any tricky Timeline stereo wizz bangery stuff.
My question is what is my best option? Well I could just try and see what I like however I don't have 2 amps here to do that. Any delay/reverb experts out there that can give me some advise?
My question is what is my best option? Well I could just try and see what I like however I don't have 2 amps here to do that. Any delay/reverb experts out there that can give me some advise?
- jeremyb
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Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
You need a neunaber stereo wet, it's the only sensible answer
Slowy wrote: That's the problem; everything rewarding is just such hard work. Regret takes much less effort.
- Reg18
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Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
Yes agreed, that would be a good solution! Unless you want to swap reverbs from mid Oct until around 10th Nov?jeremyb wrote:You need a neunaber stereo wet, it's the only sensible answer
- HackSaw
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Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
Why not try delay first, one side going into reverb, the other side dry? Or borrow another reverb, different settings either side?
- Reg18
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Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
Actually that's not a bad idea, could have one amp without the reverb and one with, could be kinda cool. Or like you said borrow another reverb and run 2.HackSaw wrote:Why not try delay first, one side going into reverb, the other side dry? Or borrow another reverb, different settings either side?
- jeremyb
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Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
Hmmm potentially, can you turn the shimmer off entirely on the eterna?Reg18 wrote:Yes agreed, that would be a good solution! Unless you want to swap reverbs from mid Oct until around 10th Nov?jeremyb wrote:You need a neunaber stereo wet, it's the only sensible answer
Slowy wrote: That's the problem; everything rewarding is just such hard work. Regret takes much less effort.
- Reg18
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Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
Yep, just turn that knob down and the shimmer has left the building!jeremyb wrote:Hmmm potentially, can you turn the shimmer off entirely on the eterna?Reg18 wrote:Yes agreed, that would be a good solution! Unless you want to swap reverbs from mid Oct until around 10th Nov?jeremyb wrote:You need a neunaber stereo wet, it's the only sensible answer
- Eruera
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Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
Well unmodulated delays and reverbs are both LTI systems so in theory it doesn't matter which order you put them in, so long as they both maintain a true stereo path. If either is modulated or pitch shifted you wind up with a LTV system, which I think can still be commutative in some cases but that's no longer a given.
In other words, it may make less difference than you'd think.
In other words, it may make less difference than you'd think.
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Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
You lost me at "LTI" and "LTV" system, can you explain?Eruera wrote:Well unmodulated delays and reverbs are both LTI systems so in theory it doesn't matter which order you put them in, so long as they both maintain a true stereo path. If either is modulated or pitch shifted you wind up with a LTV system, which I think can still be commutative in some cases but that's no longer a given.
In other words, it may make less difference than you'd think.
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Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
Linear Time-Invariant and Linear Time-Variant
Bit hard to explain but in our terms the linear means no distortion. To use someone else's example, linearity requires that a*f(x+y) = f(a*x) + f(a*x). The function part could be something as simple as times by 2. Let's say that a=3 x=4 y=5.
3*2*(4+5) = 54.
2*(3*4) + 2*(3*5) = 24 + 30 =54
They're the same so that function (times 2) is linear. Now let's say that the function is squared.
3*(4+5)^2 = 243
(3*4)^2 + (3*5)^2 = 144 + 225 = 369.
Those two are different so squaring is a non-linear function.
Time variance is about whether that function is changing with time. Say we had a sine wave modulating what the function was multiplying by from the first example. It would still be linear, but now it's time variant because the result of the function depends on the time that you're doing it. The answer when a=0 is different to when a=1, so if a is changing with time then so is your answer.
It seems counter intuitive, but a straight delay or reverb is LTI, linear and not depending on time (seems weird because they're 'time' effects, but if you think about it the same amount of delay is applied to the signal regardless of when it arrives). This means that for a given input the output will be the same, regardless of which order they are in. Modulation screws with this because now the amount of delay applied to the signal is changing with time, so we wind up with an LTV system (my EE friends are iffy on whether the order of these always matters but it definitely matters in at least some cases).
Bear in mind I'm not an EE, one of those could probably explain it much better than I have here
Bit hard to explain but in our terms the linear means no distortion. To use someone else's example, linearity requires that a*f(x+y) = f(a*x) + f(a*x). The function part could be something as simple as times by 2. Let's say that a=3 x=4 y=5.
3*2*(4+5) = 54.
2*(3*4) + 2*(3*5) = 24 + 30 =54
They're the same so that function (times 2) is linear. Now let's say that the function is squared.
3*(4+5)^2 = 243
(3*4)^2 + (3*5)^2 = 144 + 225 = 369.
Those two are different so squaring is a non-linear function.
Time variance is about whether that function is changing with time. Say we had a sine wave modulating what the function was multiplying by from the first example. It would still be linear, but now it's time variant because the result of the function depends on the time that you're doing it. The answer when a=0 is different to when a=1, so if a is changing with time then so is your answer.
It seems counter intuitive, but a straight delay or reverb is LTI, linear and not depending on time (seems weird because they're 'time' effects, but if you think about it the same amount of delay is applied to the signal regardless of when it arrives). This means that for a given input the output will be the same, regardless of which order they are in. Modulation screws with this because now the amount of delay applied to the signal is changing with time, so we wind up with an LTV system (my EE friends are iffy on whether the order of these always matters but it definitely matters in at least some cases).
Bear in mind I'm not an EE, one of those could probably explain it much better than I have here
- MogwaiBoy
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Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
I would (and regularly do) go with one of 2 options:
- Put the mono reverb before stereo delay to 2 amps. It's not as different as you might think.
- Put the mono reverb after the TimeLine but split the stereo signal at the TimeLine so the mono reverb only goes to one amp. This in itself creates an interest doubling effect and allows you to use more extreme reverb settings because the other "dry" amp maintains clarity.
- Put the mono reverb before stereo delay to 2 amps. It's not as different as you might think.
- Put the mono reverb after the TimeLine but split the stereo signal at the TimeLine so the mono reverb only goes to one amp. This in itself creates an interest doubling effect and allows you to use more extreme reverb settings because the other "dry" amp maintains clarity.
- jeremyb
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Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
Might be worth giving it a try first Reg
Slowy wrote: That's the problem; everything rewarding is just such hard work. Regret takes much less effort.
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Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
So what you're saying is that LTI and LTV are different because maths?Eruera wrote:Linear Time-Invariant and Linear Time-Variant
Bit hard to explain but in our terms the linear means no distortion. To use someone else's example, linearity requires that a*f(x+y) = f(a*x) + f(a*x). The function part could be something as simple as times by 2. Let's say that a=3 x=4 y=5.
3*2*(4+5) = 54.
2*(3*4) + 2*(3*5) = 24 + 30 =54
They're the same so that function (times 2) is linear. Now let's say that the function is squared.
3*(4+5)^2 = 243
(3*4)^2 + (3*5)^2 = 144 + 225 = 369.
Those two are different so squaring is a non-linear function.
Time variance is about whether that function is changing with time. Say we had a sine wave modulating what the function was multiplying by from the first example. It would still be linear, but now it's time variant because the result of the function depends on the time that you're doing it. The answer when a=0 is different to when a=1, so if a is changing with time then so is your answer.
It seems counter intuitive, but a straight delay or reverb is LTI, linear and not depending on time (seems weird because they're 'time' effects, but if you think about it the same amount of delay is applied to the signal regardless of when it arrives). This means that for a given input the output will be the same, regardless of which order they are in. Modulation screws with this because now the amount of delay applied to the signal is changing with time, so we wind up with an LTV system (my EE friends are iffy on whether the order of these always matters but it definitely matters in at least some cases).
Bear in mind I'm not an EE, one of those could probably explain it much better than I have here
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Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?
without maths: verb comes last.
There are still some that think the neck PU is moved to accommodate the extra frets which only proves they cannot detect the difference in length of each.