Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Gear Aquisition Syndrome is a serious disorder.... FX etc

Moderators: Slowy, Capt. Black

User avatar
Reg18
Vintage Post Junkie
Vintage Post Junkie
Posts: 3657
meble-kuchenne.warszawa.pl
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:57 pm
Has liked: 312 times
Been liked: 928 times

Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by Reg18 »

So I've got a Timeline delay (stereo) and a Mr Black Eterna reverb (not stereo) for an up coming event I'm hoping to go stereo. I only really use reverb for atmospheric bits with a washy delay with long feedback time. I have always had reverb last in my chain because I don't really want to saturate my delay in reverb but to go stereo I will either need to go reverb into delay and out left and right from my timeline to both amps or go delay into reverb and then via an AB box of some sort to both amps, however this bypasses any tricky Timeline stereo wizz bangery stuff.

My question is what is my best option? Well I could just try and see what I like however I don't have 2 amps here to do that. Any delay/reverb experts out there that can give me some advise?

User avatar
jeremyb
Chorus of Organs
Posts: 40893
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:03 am
Has liked: 7692 times
Been liked: 4159 times

Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by jeremyb »

You need a neunaber stereo wet, it's the only sensible answer :lol:
Slowy wrote: That's the problem; everything rewarding is just such hard work. Regret takes much less effort.

User avatar
Reg18
Vintage Post Junkie
Vintage Post Junkie
Posts: 3657
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:57 pm
Has liked: 312 times
Been liked: 928 times

Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by Reg18 »

jeremyb wrote:You need a neunaber stereo wet, it's the only sensible answer :lol:
Yes agreed, that would be a good solution! Unless you want to swap reverbs from mid Oct until around 10th Nov?

User avatar
HackSaw
Vintage Post Junkie
Vintage Post Junkie
Posts: 2774
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 6:34 am
Location: AKL
Has liked: 145 times
Been liked: 519 times

Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by HackSaw »

Why not try delay first, one side going into reverb, the other side dry? Or borrow another reverb, different settings either side?

User avatar
Reg18
Vintage Post Junkie
Vintage Post Junkie
Posts: 3657
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:57 pm
Has liked: 312 times
Been liked: 928 times

Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by Reg18 »

HackSaw wrote:Why not try delay first, one side going into reverb, the other side dry? Or borrow another reverb, different settings either side?
Actually that's not a bad idea, could have one amp without the reverb and one with, could be kinda cool. Or like you said borrow another reverb and run 2.

User avatar
jeremyb
Chorus of Organs
Posts: 40893
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:03 am
Has liked: 7692 times
Been liked: 4159 times

Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by jeremyb »

Reg18 wrote:
jeremyb wrote:You need a neunaber stereo wet, it's the only sensible answer :lol:
Yes agreed, that would be a good solution! Unless you want to swap reverbs from mid Oct until around 10th Nov?
Hmmm potentially, can you turn the shimmer off entirely on the eterna?
Slowy wrote: That's the problem; everything rewarding is just such hard work. Regret takes much less effort.

User avatar
Reg18
Vintage Post Junkie
Vintage Post Junkie
Posts: 3657
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:57 pm
Has liked: 312 times
Been liked: 928 times

Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by Reg18 »

jeremyb wrote:
Reg18 wrote:
jeremyb wrote:You need a neunaber stereo wet, it's the only sensible answer :lol:
Yes agreed, that would be a good solution! Unless you want to swap reverbs from mid Oct until around 10th Nov?
Hmmm potentially, can you turn the shimmer off entirely on the eterna?
Yep, just turn that knob down and the shimmer has left the building!

User avatar
Eruera
Vintage Post Junkie
Vintage Post Junkie
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:58 am
Location: Balmy Palmy
Has liked: 3 times
Been liked: 35 times

Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by Eruera »

Well unmodulated delays and reverbs are both LTI systems so in theory it doesn't matter which order you put them in, so long as they both maintain a true stereo path. If either is modulated or pitch shifted you wind up with a LTV system, which I think can still be commutative in some cases but that's no longer a given.

In other words, it may make less difference than you'd think.

User avatar
Reg18
Vintage Post Junkie
Vintage Post Junkie
Posts: 3657
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:57 pm
Has liked: 312 times
Been liked: 928 times

Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by Reg18 »

Eruera wrote:Well unmodulated delays and reverbs are both LTI systems so in theory it doesn't matter which order you put them in, so long as they both maintain a true stereo path. If either is modulated or pitch shifted you wind up with a LTV system, which I think can still be commutative in some cases but that's no longer a given.

In other words, it may make less difference than you'd think.
You lost me at "LTI" and "LTV" system, can you explain?

User avatar
Eruera
Vintage Post Junkie
Vintage Post Junkie
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:58 am
Location: Balmy Palmy
Has liked: 3 times
Been liked: 35 times

Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by Eruera »

Linear Time-Invariant and Linear Time-Variant

Bit hard to explain but in our terms the linear means no distortion. To use someone else's example, linearity requires that a*f(x+y) = f(a*x) + f(a*x). The function part could be something as simple as times by 2. Let's say that a=3 x=4 y=5.

3*2*(4+5) = 54.

2*(3*4) + 2*(3*5) = 24 + 30 =54

They're the same so that function (times 2) is linear. Now let's say that the function is squared.

3*(4+5)^2 = 243

(3*4)^2 + (3*5)^2 = 144 + 225 = 369.

Those two are different so squaring is a non-linear function.

Time variance is about whether that function is changing with time. Say we had a sine wave modulating what the function was multiplying by from the first example. It would still be linear, but now it's time variant because the result of the function depends on the time that you're doing it. The answer when a=0 is different to when a=1, so if a is changing with time then so is your answer.

It seems counter intuitive, but a straight delay or reverb is LTI, linear and not depending on time (seems weird because they're 'time' effects, but if you think about it the same amount of delay is applied to the signal regardless of when it arrives). This means that for a given input the output will be the same, regardless of which order they are in. Modulation screws with this because now the amount of delay applied to the signal is changing with time, so we wind up with an LTV system (my EE friends are iffy on whether the order of these always matters but it definitely matters in at least some cases).

Bear in mind I'm not an EE, one of those could probably explain it much better than I have here :lol:

User avatar
MogwaiBoy
Vintage Post Junkie
Vintage Post Junkie
Posts: 2346
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:35 pm
Has liked: 157 times
Been liked: 242 times

Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by MogwaiBoy »

I would (and regularly do) go with one of 2 options:

- Put the mono reverb before stereo delay to 2 amps. It's not as different as you might think.

- Put the mono reverb after the TimeLine but split the stereo signal at the TimeLine so the mono reverb only goes to one amp. This in itself creates an interest doubling effect and allows you to use more extreme reverb settings because the other "dry" amp maintains clarity.

User avatar
jeremyb
Chorus of Organs
Posts: 40893
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:03 am
Has liked: 7692 times
Been liked: 4159 times

Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by jeremyb »

Might be worth giving it a try first Reg :)
Slowy wrote: That's the problem; everything rewarding is just such hard work. Regret takes much less effort.

User avatar
bender
Darth Fader
Posts: 11838
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:46 pm
Location: Dorkland
Has liked: 415 times
Been liked: 1010 times

Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by bender »

Eruera wrote:Linear Time-Invariant and Linear Time-Variant

Bit hard to explain but in our terms the linear means no distortion. To use someone else's example, linearity requires that a*f(x+y) = f(a*x) + f(a*x). The function part could be something as simple as times by 2. Let's say that a=3 x=4 y=5.

3*2*(4+5) = 54.

2*(3*4) + 2*(3*5) = 24 + 30 =54

They're the same so that function (times 2) is linear. Now let's say that the function is squared.

3*(4+5)^2 = 243

(3*4)^2 + (3*5)^2 = 144 + 225 = 369.

Those two are different so squaring is a non-linear function.

Time variance is about whether that function is changing with time. Say we had a sine wave modulating what the function was multiplying by from the first example. It would still be linear, but now it's time variant because the result of the function depends on the time that you're doing it. The answer when a=0 is different to when a=1, so if a is changing with time then so is your answer.

It seems counter intuitive, but a straight delay or reverb is LTI, linear and not depending on time (seems weird because they're 'time' effects, but if you think about it the same amount of delay is applied to the signal regardless of when it arrives). This means that for a given input the output will be the same, regardless of which order they are in. Modulation screws with this because now the amount of delay applied to the signal is changing with time, so we wind up with an LTV system (my EE friends are iffy on whether the order of these always matters but it definitely matters in at least some cases).

Bear in mind I'm not an EE, one of those could probably explain it much better than I have here :lol:
So what you're saying is that LTI and LTV are different because maths?

mrmofo
Vintage Post Junkie
Vintage Post Junkie
Posts: 2353
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:39 am
Has liked: 365 times
Been liked: 135 times

Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by mrmofo »

without maths: verb comes last.
There are still some that think the neck PU is moved to accommodate the extra frets which only proves they cannot detect the difference in length of each.

User avatar
MogwaiBoy
Vintage Post Junkie
Vintage Post Junkie
Posts: 2346
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:35 pm
Has liked: 157 times
Been liked: 242 times

Re: Delay before reverb except after.....stereo requirements?

Post by MogwaiBoy »

I use 2 verbs so I have both before/after options. I love some delay before OD too.

Post Reply