What's your process?

...and stuff

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Tsuken
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Re: What's your process?

Post by Tsuken »

Kristie wrote:I always think minor key for sad songs, major for happy. But sometimes I've been subconsciously deliberately (paradoxymoron I know) reversing that to give an ironic feel
Interesting. I know most people think that way, but I really don't see it. Tchaikovsky (I think) wrote that he reserved the major scale for his saddest melodies, and I feel the same way. Yes you can write something very twee and childish/happy in a major key, but it can also be very very sad. Minor keys to me feel more hard-edged and strong, than sad.

As for me writing ... my lyric-writing sucks rocks, so I mostly write instrumentals ... mostly. ;)

My overall process is probably finding a cool riff or lick or chord, and then developing it. The developing is the "craft" part that you were asking about, Ash.

With reference to your question about when to use the "odd" chords, Ash, I can best illustrate with an old song of mine where the original spark I got was a melody (and lyric line in that case). It was in D major, and the first 7 notes could all have gone over a D major chord - and a whole bar of 4/4. But ... I wanted to have some movement halfway through the bar. The melody note at that 3rd beat was actually a D note, so the basic chords would have been staying on Dmaj (which I didn't want) or going to Bm or Gmaj - neither of which gave the effect I wanted: there was too much movement; in other words I wanted a D, but a different D. ;) That immediately led me to think about diminished or augmented chords. I had been using a bunch of diminished chords in other songs at the time, so I used D augmented.

Further, the A# in that chord led pretty naturally to a B, and the melody started the next bar with an E note, so that pretty much suggested Em. That just "fell" to the next chord: a Cmaj (so that wasn't a consciously planned thing; it just "felt right"), which fell in turn to a G major. The Cmaj chord had made G sound like the tonic, and I wanted to get back to D major for the next time through, and I figured the strongest way to do that was with a ii V (which would be Em to A). That left the question of how to get back to the Em. I decided that since I had done an augmented chord earlier, it was now time for a diminished, ;) so I did a walk up from Dmaj7 to D#dim to Em - then A, and back to Dmaj.

So for me it's generally a mix of thinking and feeling what comes next. The end result was this: http://www.owen.net.nz/raf/music/alittletattoo.mp3 (apologies for awful and lo-fi singing).

In summary, I find the "funny" chords provide colour (eg 9ths/11ths/13ths) or provide some motion without too much change in the chord, or help you move from one chord/harmonic structure to another (eg diminished and augmented).
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Re: What's your process?

Post by Danger Mouse »

There is no process for me, because I can't write songs. I can write riffs, but every originals band I've been in, I've just written riffs and other people (i.e. the talented ones) have turned them into songs.
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Re: What's your process?

Post by sambrowne »

Here comes an epic post.

Songwriting has always been "the whole point" of guitar playing for me. I am not a flashy guitarist and would not wow anyone with my chops, but I would much rather have the ability to write songs than technical skills.

Here is my formula. It's not short but it works.

I write on acoustic guitar almost exclusively. Initially I don't worry about "details", I just get the chords, melody and lyrics down - that's "the song", everything else is added by the band and that's "the arrangement".

I also don't worry about making the structure/parts interesting until I jam the (finished) song with the band. I tend to get a verse, climb, chorus and middle 8, and then consider the song "done". I have learned to do this from having gone the other way for years (getting every detail down to the individual drum fills just so) and not actually getting anywhere with it.

This method works very well for me. I have written about 60 songs this way. You can do this every single day if you allow yourself to use existing songs as jump off points, rather than trying to create "something out of nothing", and writing from scratch. Most of you can probably relate to trying to write a song and yet again finding that you go back to the same old chords every time - I did this for years and years. When I allowed myself to "borrow" from great songs, I found that ironically my stuff became a lot more original, and I became prolific. I now write about 30 songs a year but if I had to, I could write a couple a week using this method.

1. Take existing song (or part of a song, like the chorus) that I like for whatever reason (rhythm, harmony, melody, atmosphere, whatever).

2. Copy existing song/part, but make changes to make it something that I like even more than the original.

3. Now that kernel of song has been created, things kind of progress on their own. The part that I have borrowed and changed becomes a verse, or chorus, and so a chorus, or verse part needs to be created. Sometimes I'll reference another existing song for this part, so the new song becomes a combination of the two.

4. Once a verse and chorus part are established, I sing gibberish (i.e. exactly like I'm singing the lyrics but there are no lyrics as yet so I just go something like "Baa nah fu see ya...") to find the melody and the rhythmic feel of what the lyrics will eventually be.

5. Now that I have the chords and melody, it's time for the hard part - the lyrics. I put the guitar down. I take a one sentence idea (say, something like "You are your own worst enemy" or "People change as they get older, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse" or maybe just "Missing my girl") and expand on it, without needing it to be lyrical or anything. I just allow whatever ideas to come through that will, just stream of consciousness but related to the central theme of the song. Sometimes I'll get a useful phrase, but mostly these expansions will form sub ideas for the verses. After a short while I'll have plenty of fodder for the individual verses (which should all exist as separate sub ideas to the central theme in the chorus).

6. Now I try and mold the lyrical ideas I have written into rhythmically effective lines that rhyme with each other AND engage me. They can rhyme, and work within the rhythm, but still be shit! This is the most difficult part in the process, for me and everyone I've ever discussed it with. Musicians are not poets but we are expected to be if we are to write good lyrics.

7. Once the lyrics are done I record the acoustic guitar/vocal version of the song with no regard for structure beyond a basic verse chorus verse chorus. Usually I don't write the bridge til the band has begun workshopping a song, as it will usually present itself to me as we jam. I record roughly into Microsoft Word, just so everything that I've been working on is stored forever. The singing can be (and sometimes is) flat, and the performance can be imperfect, it just needs to be "completed" and stored. Basically it's now a completed pencil sketch of what will become a full colour painting once the band adds their parts.

8. I play the song to the band, and then make some suggestions for what I have in mind. I'll have a goal in mind (probably trying to capture the atmosphere of a couple of existing songs) and usually the easiest way to coherently explain it to the band is to have a reference song that we are aiming to "get". We play through the song. The bass part is simple, based around the harmony. It writes itself. The drums come quickly too - we find the right beat and I leave the drummer to define the dynamics of the verse part, then the climb, then the chorus. We discuss it if anything is not working otherwise I leave him to it. The second guitarist and I bat around hooks by getting the other guys to "loop" on the verse part or chorus. I will sing in a loop as well so that we only create parts that complement the vocal, not compete with it.

9. If a middle eight, intro and outro is not yet written, we'll bat around ideas. I'll usually have a think about it during the day of band practice and again, have a starting point for what I want the intro to do. I treat the intro as separate to the verse and choruses - it can be a single part that only occurs once in the song, since it's pretty important that it "works" and draws the listener in. The middle eight is important too - it's an alternative to the chorus so it needs to work as well as a chorus. We'll often try things out as a band on this part. Lyrics for the middle eight will often be a variation on the chorus lyrics so it's not hard to get something written in amongst the noise of band practice.

10. Hopefully the song is done. We play through it and judge whether it works as a whole or not. If something needs tweaking to be "cool", we tweak it. My band members are all highly experienced musos and there is usually unanimity in a lot of the decisions about parts to change, dump and keep.

That's it! Song done. We do a rough recording and then jam the song through 3 or 4 times to solidify it in our brains. Ideally at this point we would go and do a proper live demo (at a studio) of the last 2 or 3 songs we've recorded, so we have a really good template to work off when we do the "real" studio version of the song.

I hope that helps someone who is finding songwriting a struggle. It IS hard, but worth the effort.

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Re: What's your process?

Post by foal30 »

probably agree with Sam that it is the whole point of playing a musical instrument.

I have written hundreds of songs, recorded and released maybe 100 of them. The songwriting process is the same learning curve or experience process as any other functionary of our musicality.

as per the Capt, times vary about quantity, I do not think it is an age thing more about what do you have too write about or alternately how much time do I have either jamming or for trying new ideas.

A lot of songs start from the Bass Riff, or the Drum pattern... it might be a lyric or a chord progression on the keyboards. As for throwing off stuff in, it's just trial (and mostly) error...for an obvious one try a 4 chord verse in a major key then a 4 chord chorus in a minor key...just to open up differences and them possibly close them.

It's always a work in progress too...it's worse than hard drugs...the next one is it you know...I still get excited with a the next tune. :)

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Re: What's your process?

Post by rob_on_guitar »

They way i do it is i just make a riff then record it. After that I expand on it by wondering what kind of 'feel' it has, is it a sad riff, rock, heavy, etc and see what seems to flow with it.

Like my first recording here: http://www.box.net/shared/3ywy01gggk

Turned into this: http://www.box.net/shared/uxye9ipiju

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Re: What's your process?

Post by DarcyPerry »

"My life begins to end the day I become silent about things that matter." Martin Luther King, Jr.

I get a lot of inspiration from famous quotes. The above is bound to become a song for me this year. 8)
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Re: What's your process?

Post by Bg »

DarcyPerry wrote:"My life begins to end the day I become silent about things that matter." Martin Luther King, Jr.

I get a lot of inspiration from famous quotes. The above is bound to become a song for me this year. 8)
Works for me too, one of our latest songs is "I may be laid down in the gutter, but at least I'm looking at the stars" :)

That song virtually wrote itself ;)
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Re: What's your process?

Post by Lawrence »

I Like SamBrownes approach.......it makes sense even if you are working alone on a recording platform.

Les Paul often says....."Never turn on the machine until you know exactly what you are going to do!"

great advice that I always forget to take... :oops:
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Re: What's your process?

Post by ash »

DarcyPerry wrote:"My life begins to end the day I become silent about things that matter." Martin Luther King, Jr.

I get a lot of inspiration from famous quotes. The above is bound to become a song for me this year. 8)
This is the kind of thing I've had running through my head. Insprational phrases or lines or rhymes. I need a book to write them all down in.
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Re: What's your process?

Post by DarcyPerry »

I write most of my ideas/choruses/stuff/phrases/verses in emails. They stay in my drafts folder until I have a groove/feel/music requiring words. Then it's copy/paste time! Moving things around like David Bowie's famous one-line-per-page, pages-spread-all-over-the-studio-floor approach. Um, I take it y'all heard of that one?

Of course if the spirit ain't in it, it ain't art. 8)
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Re: What's your process?

Post by Capt. Black »

ash wrote:
DarcyPerry wrote:"My life begins to end the day I become silent about things that matter." Martin Luther King, Jr.

I get a lot of inspiration from famous quotes. The above is bound to become a song for me this year. 8)
This is the kind of thing I've had running through my head. Insprational phrases or lines or rhymes. I need a book to write them all down in.
I need to read more books to get some out of...

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Re: What's your process?

Post by thehenderson »

Lawrence wrote:Les Paul often says....."Never turn on the machine until you know exactly what you are going to do!"

great advice that I always forget to take... :oops:
Nah, that sounds like advice from 50 years ago. Multi track recording software IS an instrument, you play it, lots of people write using it

Personally, I don't like writing songs on guitar because I can't play a melody and bass line at the same time with great ease on it. Prefer a piano, or just using Logic or Pro Tools

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Re: What's your process?

Post by dayl »

thehenderson wrote:
Lawrence wrote:Les Paul often says....."Never turn on the machine until you know exactly what you are going to do!"

great advice that I always forget to take... :oops:
Multi track recording software IS an instrument, you play it, lots of people write using it
Prefer a piano, or just using Logic or Pro Tools
Have to some what agree there. I can track that melody in my head in seconds and come back to it later to clean it up.

The process? hmm, I may start with a chorus or verse line, sometimes a nice intro that I will follw suit with later.

I build the track around that part which ever it may be by placing it in the appropriate place (I'm multi tracking here) and jam around it until something forms. The track is usually set to 3:30min and I will add subtract once Melodies,verses,choruses,bridge whatever are all sorted.

If I dont plot out the bare bones of a song based around that one part, I may end up stuck with that loop forever.

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Re: What's your process?

Post by Lawrence »

re the Les Paul quote - you will notive from the methods I posrted earlier that its not what I do...

but Im really aware of the pitfalls of relying on the technology. At the end of the day SamBrowne will always be able to pickup an acoustic and play his songs...most of the stuff Ive written in the last few years Ive never actually played all the way through.... :oops:

One point I didnt pickup on .....and I fully respect Sams views and those who supported it - but I play guitar for the sake of performance....songwriting is a separate issue. It saddens me when I hear people diss world class performers just cos they dont write songs...its a bit like dissing a F1 driver for not being a car designer!...or a sculpter for not designing rotary carving machines....

any, I recall theres a whole thread on this so Ill shut up!
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Re: What's your process?

Post by sgt mukuzi »

inversion
retograde inversion
pure line

thats what i do when writing a song, i havnt seen this mentioned so far in this thread which is a suprise to me.

I'm writing a twelve tone jazz/funk tune at the moment. i start with an abstract chord and go from there. on paper, not the guitar, if we all write on guitars then our music will be written for guitar. i want to write music not music for the guitar. its then the process to learn the tune on the guitar. then the process takes a turn and in the past the band can work out who plays what. at least thats how the first set of the original "mukuzi" band was written. all from abstract harmony, not from chord changes.
in a way all chords move in the same way, we are only ever playing one or two chords in a song, no matter what we think we are playing. i want to be able to relate to music not chord changes so thats where and how i`m thinking about writing tunes. let the maths take care of the changes after the initial germ/motif of the idea comes from abstract harmonic concepts.
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